IN THE DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF BOULDER, STATE OF COLORADO CASE NO: 2000 CV 2035_________________________________ DAVID ALBER and JOYCE ALBER, as )Husband and Wife, ) Plaintiffs )vs ) )UNITED STATES GYPSUM COMPANY, ) et. al. ) Defendants ) _________________________________ Deposition of Dr. Bruce W. Case held at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel 900, Ren,-L,vesque Blvd. West Montreal, Province of Quebec August 22, 2001 APPEARANCES:TRINE & METCALF, P.C. J. Conard Metcalf, Esq. (by phone)Counsel for Plaintiffs GODFREY & LAPUYADE Michelle Pinkowski, Esq. (by phone) Counsel for Defendant Borg Warner Corp.DAVIES, McFARLAND & CARROLL, P.C. Scott M. Browning, Esq. (by phone) Eric K. Falk, Esq. (present at deposition) Counsel for Defendant Honeywell/AlliedCHURCH & HOUFF, P.A. R. Thomas Radclifffe, Jr. (present atdeposition) Counsel for Defendant Dana Corporation NICOLE L'ABB_, O.C.R. .. - 2 -. TABLE OF CONTENTS WITNESS: BRUCE WINSTON CASE EXAMINED BY Mr. J. CONARD METCALF _________________________ .. - 3 -. IN THE YEAR TWO THOUSAND AND ONE, on this22nd day 1 of August, personally came and BRUCE WINSTON CASE, physician, born onJanuary 2, 4 1948, domiciled and residing at 462, ArgyleAvenue, 5 Wes WHOM, having made a solemn affirmation, dothdepose 8 and say as follows: on the record. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Please do. I just wanted to make sure that... Mr. ERIC FALK: Scott... . clarified. Mr. ERIC FALK: Scott, stop for a second. The court reporter needs 4 people on the phone to identify themselves when they 5 speak up. hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Colorado Rules of Civil Procedure. UnderRule 28, 19 if we have any objections, meaning Honeywell-- 20 which is Allied Signal and Bendix, which arethe 21 predecessors that we're going to discusshere today 22 -- if Honeywell has any objections to theform of 23 this deposition, it needs to do so atoutset, so I'm 24 doing that now. Under Rule 28, no letters 25 .. - 5 -. interrogatory or rogatory have been servedand no 1 international letters rogatory have been served. 2 That is a long way, Doctor Case, of saying that 3 you're appearing here voluntarily, do you understand 4 that? THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. understand that? THE WITNESS: I do. voluntarily, do you understand that? 25.. - 6 -. THE WITNESS: That's fine. And I appreciate this interruption, Conard. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: So, are you ready to leave now, Doctor Case, and go 14 back home? THE WITNESS: No, I'm still here. EXAMINED BY Mr. J. CONARD METCALF, Esq., Counsel for Plaintiffs: 1 Q. Are you ready to go? A. All set. 2 Q. Doctor Case, do you know if there is a chiefmine 24 geologist at Asbestos, Quebec, for theasbestos mine 25 Examination - 7 - Mr. Metcalf and mill there? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Let me just interrupt on this, Conard, this is Eric 4 Falk. Doctor Case has not been endorsed in this 5 matter to testify on geology, mineralogy or issues pertaining to crocidolite, alleged crocidolite contamination in the chrysotile mines. 8 He's endorsed in this case on pathology and epidemiology, and his testimony is going to be 10 limited to those matters. geologist at the mine, you know, at Asbestos, 15 Quebec? A. I'm going to be answering questions in this case on 17 the pathology and epidemiology of the Alber case, so 18 that's what I came here to do, and that's what I'm 19 going to do. So, I can't answer your question, I'm 20 sorry. 4 Q. You can't answer it for what reason? A. I will not answer your question. 25 BRUCE Examination - 8 - Mr. Metcalf Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Conard, this is Scott Browning, I'm going to continue the objections, I won't continue with Mr. 3 Falk, I'll be doing all of the objections, and what 4 Doctor Case is, I believe, trying to be clear about 5 is questions you are asking are beyond his endorsement, he hasn't been endorsed in the area 7 that you're requesting information, so he's not 8 prepared to answer those questions today. where these issues have been addressed, and presumably, his research and articles form part of 15 the basis of his opinion. One of the issues in this 16 case pertains to the crocidolite in Mr. Alber's 17 lungs; Doctor Case's report says we have to conduct 18 an investigation and a search to find the source of 19 that crocidolite, and what you're telling me is that 20 you're not going to allow me to investigate that, 21 that's just fine if that's what you're going to do, 22 and we'll deal with it. 25 BRUCE up in different cases but not in this case. And, 7 most importantly, when you said, you know, you 8 believe he's reviewed materials that underlie his 9 report on those topics, I think that should be our 10 starting point, because I think what you'll find... 11 tell Doctor Case not to answer, he won't answer, 18 we'll just move on. Examination - 10 - Mr. Metcalf Alber case that a search should be conducted to 1 determine the source of the crocidolite in Mr. 2 Alber's lungs? A. Yes, I did ask. 6 Q. Okay, now, do you know whether there was a shipping 5 and receiving department at the asbestos factory in 6 Asbestos, Quebec? A. That has nothing to do with this case. 7 Q. Have you interviewed anyone who was in charge of the 9 shipping and receiving department at Asbestos to 10 determine what kind of fiber was received there? 11 hasn't been endorsed on that topic. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: All right, that's your position, I think that in a 18 discovery deposition I cannot simply be limited to 19 what you're going to allow him to answer within the 20 four corners of his report. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: I'd like to take a recess at this point, I'dlike to 24 have the record reflect that Doctor DavidEgilman, 25 Terrific. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Scott? room. THE WITNESS: Hi, David! or what he does or where he goes. 25 BRUCE to stay. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Well, whatever Doctor Egilman wants to do is his 11 choice. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: This is Michelle Pinkowski, I would just like the 15 record to reflect that we have been informed that 16 Doctor Egilman was not available to participate in 17 this case until this weekend for his deposition, 18 obviously all parties have been attempting to set 19 his deposition. The fact that he is now present in 20 the case deposition room indicates to me that there 21 has been some... THE COURT REPORTER: Could you speak up, please? 25 BRUCE Examination - 13 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Michelle, you need to speak up. THE WITNESS: We can't hear you. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: I wanted the record to reflect that Doctor Egilman's 8 presence in Doctor Case's deposition room belie the 9 plaintiff's assertion to us that Doctor Egilman was 10 not available to participate in this case by way of 11 his deposition until this weekend. questioning? Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Not if Doctor Egilman is present, let me be clear, 20 Honeywell's position at this point is we're happy to 21 tender Doctor Case, we're happy to do so for the 22 plaintiffs' counsel; if the plaintiffs' counsel 23 wants advisors present with him, we would obviously 24 have no reason to object to that. However, given 25 BRUCE leave, he's gone. Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Well, the key, Conard, is if Doctor Egilman is going 14 to remain in the room and if he is, I'm going to 15 adjourn the deposition. You don't need to keep 16 asking questions, I'm going to adjourn the deposition. can't tell him what to do. 25 BRUCE leave. So you do have control, Conard. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: I don't have control. If I delist him, that doesn't 11 mean he's going to leave. he chooses to stay, he chooses to stay. 25 BRUCE run this case. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: You know, running this case doesn't, I think, Scott, 12 include you and I tossing people around and telling 13 them where they can be and where they can't be. So, 14 I'm just going to start asking my questions. this deposition? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Doctor Egilman is still present, setting up his 22 computer, right now. 25 BRUCE deposition. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: All right. request? Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Doctor Case, you are so instructed. A. I've been instructed. you're going to follow his instructions? A. ... (no answer). 10 Q. I didn't hear your response, Doctor Case,I'm sorry. 22 Mr. ERIC K. FALK: This is Eric Falk on behalf of AlliedSignal, Mr. 25 BRUCE Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: While we are still on the record, this is Michelle 14 Pinkowski, Conard, I want you to know that we 15 consider this a discovery abuse, we have incurred 16 attorney fees needlessly due to your... Examination - 19 - Mr. Metcalf the room, that's ridiculous. I just don'twant to 1 hear it. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: I confine with my obligations under Rule 121, 5 Section 1-15 to confer with you prior to filing a 6 Motion for Sanction. can't do so. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Well, what I said is Doctor Egilman is a free person 20 just like you, Scott, I can't make you be on this 21 deposition, I can't make you leave this deposition. 22 Doctor Egilman, as far as I know, hasn't even said a 23 word, hasn't done anything. The only disruption has 24 been by counsel. 25 BRUCE not. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: I'm not agreeing to him being there or not being 9 there. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: But you obviously arranged to have him there, 13 Conard. anywhere. Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Conard, a deposition is not a public proceeding, 21 it's only open to the parties and their counsel, 22 that's the law in this jurisdiction. So, Doctor 23 Egilman has no right to be there, and as the person 24 who has endorsed Doctor Egilman, you need to request 25 BRUCE listen to me. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: The Colorado... THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear you, I'm sorry. Ms. MICHELLE PINKOWSKI: Conard, I want the record also to reflect it is my 16 belief, under Rule 121, that the Colorado District 17 Court has reflected that Plaintiffs' counsel has the 18 duty to control their witness, specifically this 19 witness. We're requesting you do that now. wanting me to wrestle him out of the room or what? 25 BRUCE WINSTON CASE Examination - 22 - Mr. Metcalf Conard, ask him to leave. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Doctor Egilman, please leave. Dr. DAVID EGILMAN: Okay, I'll leave. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Okay, he said he'd leave. You want to take a short 11 break? after a short break, is that correct? Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Well, I don't know if the deposition will continue 20 or not, because I think that you're not going to 21 allow Doctor Case to answer any of my questions, but 22 we'll see. 25 BRUCE now, and find that out. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Why don't we take a short break and let... Examination - 24 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Okay, we'll stay on the record. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: We'll do that. Mr. R. THOMAS RADCLIFFE, Jr.: So has the witness and Mr. Falk. Doctor Egilman has 14 left the room. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Doctor Egilman has indeed packed up and left the 18 room. So, I guess we can proceed. Mr. Metcalf, are 19 you still there? I'm here. 25 BRUCE Examination - 25 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Doctor Egilman has left. And? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: And Doctor Case is back in the room. And? Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: The deposition is continued. sorry. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: That's really generous, I appreciate that very much, 24 thank you. 25 BRUCE was in charge of the shipping and receiving department at the asbestos mill at Asbestos,Quebec? 3 I object to that question, it's outside his endorsement, Conard. was in charge of the shipping and receiving department at the mill at Asbestos, Quebec,to 12 determine what kind of fiber was receivedthere? 13 Conard, he hasn't been endorsed on that, I'm objecting to that question. And it's because -- are you claiming it's privileged? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: It is beyond the endorsement. endorsement"? Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: You're not permitted to ask questions that are 23 harassing, and that's clearly what this is, you're 24 trying to drag him into Doctor Egilman's 25 BRUCE any questions. Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: If you ask him what he relied upon reaching his 11 opinion, what articles he relied upon, what his 12 opinions are, what his report stands for, what the 13 other doctors have done, as you would do in any 14 other expert deposition, you'll get full and complete answers, Conard. Examination - 29 - Mr. Metcalf interviewed anyone who was in charge of the shipping 1 and receiving department at Asbestos? A. Conard, you worked with me before and I really 3 resent this, but listen, I've been instructed not to 4 answer, and that's the way it is. 14 Q. Okay. Now, is it true that the milling process at 6 the Asbestos, Quebec, mill, asbestos mill, was a 7 water process? Case? A. No. 16 Q. Doctor Case, do you agree that thechrysotile ores 19 in Quebec are actually themselves amphibolefree? 20 Examination - 30 - Mr.Metcalf THE WITNESS: A. And epidemiologist. anything? A. I saw your -- it was attached as an attachment to 15 Mr. Browning's e-mail to me, and I don't have the 16 list. There is no notice of deposition, and even if 17 there were a notice of deposition, not only, it's 18 things you rely on, not things that are from articles that you've written in the past. Having 20 said that, I'm perfectly willing to help you find 21 articles if you ask me, you know, what they are and 22 where they are. I know some of the things - - for 23 example, you asked me about an Environment Canada 24 report, and I'm perfectly willing to direct you to 25 BRUCE you have specific questions about specific references and I can help you find them, Imean I'm 3 not a library service but I'll be very happyto help 4 you find them or get somebody else to knowwhere to 5 look for them. 18 Q. So you do not have ready access to thearticles, to 7 the references that you cite in yourpublications? 8 A. Not on a one-day notice on an e-mail atnight, no. 9 Especially since some of them are threehundred 10 (300) page documents. 19 Q. Well, let me specifically ask you about thisarticle 12 or publication: Williams-Jones et al,Control of 13 Tremolite Formation in Chrysotile OresEvidenced in 14 the Jeffrey Mine at Asbestos (Quebec). Nowis that 15 one that you have in your office? A. I've never heard of it. Doctor Williams-Jones is 17 Head of the Earth Sciences Department atMcGill, you 18 could get it directly from him, I assume. 20 Q. But you said you'd never heard of thatpublication? 20 A. No. 21 Q. But you're one of the authors on an articlecalled 22 When Mineral Fibers on Former Miners andMillers 23 from Thetford Mines and Asbestos Region, A Comparative Study of Fiber Concentration and 25 BRUCE Examination - 32 - Mr. Metcalf Dimension, is that correct? A. Yes, that's an article by a graduate student, 2 supervised by Andr, Dufresne, I didn't write article. His number is 514... okay. 22 Q. Were you just given some instruction by one of the 15 counsel present at the deposition, Doctor? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Eric Falk, I have instructed Doctor Case to not give 19 out the phone numbers of other Faculty Members at 20 McGill University, certainly the Directory at McGill 21 University, you can access on your own. Examination - 33 - Mr. Metcalf Archives of Environmental Health, Volume 56, Number 1 1, is actually written by graduate student? A. That's correct. In fact, it was part of his thesis, 3 the idea of his thesis was to consist of three 4 articles; the second one we are preparing for -- and 5 I'm more involved in this one -- submission to 6 another journal, and I'm not sure what's going to 7 happen with the third one, but I didn't have much to 8 do with the first one. 24 Q. Doctor Case, what is your basis for saying that 10 crocidolite was used at the factory at Asbestos, 11 Quebec? case and won't be speaking to at trial. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with 20 mineralogy or geology. A. Could we go off the record for a second? Fine. 25 BRUCEWINSTON CASEExamination - 34 - Mr.Metcalf Mr Off the record. (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Back on the record, Conard, your question was 7 referring to his nineteen eighty-seven (1987) 8 articles, is that correct? years. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Well, you know, Doctor Case will talk about what he 18 did in his nineteen eighty-seven (1987) article. 19 So, to that extent, you know... A. You're also mischaracterizing the facts because I 21 discovered this in nineteen eighty-seven (1987), and 22 that was the first publication of it. The article 23 is, and I have it with me and I'll be glad to give 24 you a copy, it's called Environmental and 25 BRUCE Environmental and Occupational Exposures to Asbestos, done at the same place, financedby the 7 Lung Association originally, published inthe Annals 8 of Occupational Hygiene, 1988. This is a study where the principal goal was to find 11 out whether persons who we could establish never 12 worked in this mine, that's the mine at Asbestos, 13 the Jeffrey pit, people who could be established 14 never to have worked in that mine had any increase 15 of any fiber type in their lungs. And we did 16 establish that a group of such people had a geometric mean of zero point two eight (0.28) fibers 18 per microgram dialung versus point zero eight (.08) 19 in controls. That was the only significant difference but it was a significant difference and 21 it was for people living within forty (40) kilometers of the mine. As a positive control group, we used an occupational 25 BRUCE I said, Archives of Environmental Health,1987, 5 Volume 42. The concentration in theoccupational 6 group were all significantly higher, Ithink, for 7 every fiber types, yes, every fiber type washigher 8 in the occupational group. The geometricmean for 9 chrysotile was 0.65; for tremolite, 1.18;for 10 amosite, 0.08; for crocidolite, 0.19, andfor total 11 asbestos, 3.30, this is all in fibers permicrogram. 12 The rest of the paper breaks this down in terms of 14 percentages and, for example, in Table 3 we compare 15 the referent group to the environmentally exposed 16 group, to the occupational group, and we see that 17 for chrysotile, 28.6% of the reference -- sorry, 18 28.6% of the fibers in the lungs of the reference 19 were chrysotile, 44.6% in the environmental group 20 and 27.1% percent in the occupational group, that's 21 because there was more tremolite in the occupational 22 group, they had 38.5% in the occupational group, 23 which again was significantly elevated. For amosite 24 it was 2.8% in the occupational group, and 0.4% in 25 BRUCE For crocidolite, there were no fibers in the reference, let's see, there was one person out of 4 the twenty-two (22) environmentally exposed who had 5 any crocidolite fibers present, but among the 6 occupationally exposed, the median percentage of 7 fibers that were crocidolite was 4%, the mean was 8 11.8% with a standard error of 3, and fifteen (15) 9 of the twenty-three (23) workers had at least one 10 crocidolite fiber in their lung. This was compared to a group of eighteen(18) miners 13 from Thetford Mines. Now, Mr. Metcalf, areyou 14 aware of the geographical differencesbetween, let's 15 just say the distance between the twolocations? 16 Sorry, I didn't hear that. 25 Q. I'm just sitting here staring at the ceiling, 18 Doctor, wondering how much you're charging me for 19 reading these articles out loud when I didn't even 20 ask you to. No, I'm not going to cut him off while he's answering. It really is non-responsive but, you 3 know, when you do, I think that's my obligation to 4 give a witness the opportunity to say what he has to 5 say. A. Well, I appreciate that. 26 Q. And so, by the way, Doctor, how much are you charging me to listen to this? A. I'm not going to charge you a penny, Conard. 27 Q. How many dollars? A. No dollars, this is a freebie. 28 Q. Of course it is. So, are you done with that last 13 answer? A. Actually, the last question came from me and I was 15 waiting for your answer. 29 Q. I'm not going to answer any questions like that 17 today. A. All right, where were we? 30 Q. My question was: what is your basis for saying that 20 crocidolite was used at the factory at Asbestos, 21 Quebec? A. I just told you what was in the lungs of the miners, 23 right, you got that? 31 Q. I know you read at length some nineteen Examination - 39 - Mr.Metcalf (1987) article that you wrote, yes. A. The first article in which this was reported emphasized that, so you understand that. 32 Q. Well, I understand you say that was the first 4 article in which it was reported. A. Do you contest it? 33 Q. Yes, I do. Have you ever seen any shipping document 7 showing that crocidolite asbestos was shipped to the 8 factory at Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same objection as before. 35 Q. Are you going to not answer that, Doctor Case? 23A. I was just instructed not to answer. 36 Q. By the way, is Mr. Falk your personalattorney? 25 BRUCE purpose? A. No. 38 Q. Is he your personal attorney for purposes of this 5 deposition? A. No. 39 Q. Have you seen any written records or receipts of any 8 kind showing that crocidolite asbestos was shipped 9 to the factory at Asbestos, Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. A. Same response. factory at Asbestos, Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. A. Same response. 25 BRUCE not to answer? Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Yes, Conard, we've been through this, you're asking 6 something that has nothing to do with his opinions 7 or what he's been endorsed on, he's not a fact 8 witness, he's an expert witness. You're welcome to 9 probe his opinion, he has opinions on that. in Canada? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. A. Same response. Examination - 42 - Mr.Metcalf remember that paper? A. Yes, that's a presentation I gave at the DRI last 2 November. 43 Q. DRI is Defense Research Institute? A. That's right. 44 Q. And that was given in November of two thousand 6 (2000)? A. Yes, in Miami. 45 Q. And did you make any statements in that presentation 9 about whether or not there is any naturally occurring tremolite in Canada? A. Tremolite? 46 Q. I'm sorry, any naturally occurring crocidolite in 13 Canada? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. A. Same response. nine (29), two thousand one (2001) report? A. No. 48 Q. Have you been asked to prepare anyadditional 25 BRUCE (29), two thousand one (2001) report? A. No, I have seen other documents since then. 49 Q. Do you have any plans to submit a supplemental 4 report? A. I will if asked, and if I'm allowed to, sure. 650 Q. Have you been asked to submit a supplemental report? 7A. No. 51 Q. Have you ever been to the museum at Asbestos, 9 Quebec, Doctor Case? A. The one at Asbestos or the one at Thetford Mines? 1152 Q. The one at Asbestos, Quebec. A. Not for years and years. 53 Q. Have you ever met or talked with the curator of the 14 museum at Asbestos, Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instructions. A. Just let me answer that to some extent, because I've 19 lived in Asbestos, Quebec, and I've talked to lots 20 of people, and I wouldn't know if they were the 21 curator of a museum or the guy who worked in the 22 grocery store. 25 BRUCE Examination - 44 - Mr. Metcalf Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: 54 Q. What is the location of the factory at Asbestos, 2 Quebec, with regard to its relationship to the mill? 3A. It no longer exists. 55 Q. What no longer exists? A. The factory, it's not producing anymore. 56 Q. There is no building there at all now? A. I didn't say there wasn't a building, I said there 8 is no factory. 57 Q. How close is the building that once housed the 10 factory at Asbestos, Quebec, to the mill at Asbestos, Quebec? A. The mill has moved several times, as you well know. 1358 Q. How about in nineteen seventy-two (1972), what was 14 the proximity of the factory at Asbestos, Quebec, or 15 the mill at Asbestos? A. I wouldn't know unless I went and looked it up. 1759 Q. Do you think at one point you knew what the proximity of the factory at Asbestos, Quebec, was to 19 the mill at Asbestos, Quebec? A. I don't see why it would have been relevant, why 21 does it matter? Are you aware that the mesothelioma 22 cases in Asbestos, Quebec, show a doseresponse 23 relationship to crocidolite content in thelung Examination - 45 - Mr.Metcalf factory workers, part of the cohort. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Wait for the question, Doctor. common areas."? A. Yes. 61 Q. So, that would suggest to me that you had some 20 knowledge of the, what you believe to be the proximity of the factory to the mine and mill, is 22 that correct? A. Yes, but you said the mill before, you didn't say 24 the mine. 25 BRUCE to the mine in nineteen seventy-two (1972)? A. Well, it's right next to it, but this stuffis all 4 documented. What wasn't documented untilnineteen 5 eighty-seven (1987) was the lung content andthe 6 lung as the ultimate dosimeter, and that'swhat we 7 were able to show in nineteen eighty-seven(1987) 8 and eighty-eight ('88), and ninety-seven('97). 9 63 Q. Would you say that the factory at Asbestos,Quebec, 10 was right next to the mine, I mean, was itwithin, 11 in nineteen seventy-two (1972), was itwithin a mile 12 of the mine? A. I don't know the exact distance. Thefactory, my 14 understanding was that the factory stoppedproducing 15 in the nineteen sixties. 64 Q. Was there ever more than one asbestosproducts 17 factory at Asbestos, Quebec? A. There was, in terms of the use of, sorry, interms 19 of production, yes. 65 Q. How many asbestos products factory were inexistence 21 at one time at Asbestos, Quebec? A. I don't know. 66 Q. Was there more than one in existence at onetime at 24 Asbestos, Quebec? 25 BRUCE Examination - 47 - Mr. MetcalfA. I just answered that. 67 Q. You don't know? A. No, before that. 68 Q. Doctor Case, I imagine that the mill at Asbestos, 4 Quebec was moved and rebuilt several times, do you 5 know how many times that mill was moved and rebuilt? 6A. No, but the mines in general as they expanded had to 7 do that, and in fact, the most recent building there 8 is seven hundred (700) meters long, but it's not a 9 mill, it's a magnesium factory. My students went out 10 there last year, we did a project on HCV admissions. 1169 Q. Doctor Case, are you familiar with what crude number 12 one asbestos is, is that designation used in Quebec? 13A. No, I'm not an expert in that area. 70 Q. To your knowledge, is the milling process at Thetford substantially the same as the milling 16 process at Asbestos, Quebec? A. To my knowledge, substantially it is, but there've 18 been a lot of changes over time. If you look at some 19 of the product brochures for example, or the mine 20 brochures, you'll see they went through all kinds of 21 changes, and changes in configuration, machinery and 22 so on. 71 Q. And do you have those mine brochures? A. New York Public Library. 25 BRUCE you? A. I can do better than that, I can send you the whole 7 presentation. 73 Q. I've got the whole presentation, I just don't have a 9 usable picture. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Send it to me, Doctor Case, and I'll send itto him. 13 THE WITNESS: A. Okay, I'll send it to Mr. Falk and he can do it 16 then. page 148 of the... A. Okay, I don't have the document in front of me, but 23 can you describe the picture? 75 Q. Yes, it's Figure 2, and it's just, it's a black 25 BRUCE problem or was it just a bad original? 76 Q. I don't know, I mean all I've got is thisphotocopy 4 of this. A. Does it have a caption other than Figure 2? 77 Q. Caption says: "The much larger ThetfordMines area 7 consists of over a dozen mines drawn along ariver 8 valley." and this illustration, the largestmines 9 are shown as circles... A. Oh! okay, I know what that is, yes, that'sa, that 11 comes from... that's one of the things you requested, that's an Environment Canadapublication 13 for 1986, and in the list of requests yousent -- 14 I'm sorry, that was my computer coming on. -- you 15 had the correct reference. So, you justwrite to 16 Environment Canada, they'll send you a copyeither 17 in English or French. 78 Q. So, that's the S,bastien and Plourde et alarticle: 19 Ambient Air Asbestos Survey in Quebec MiningTowns? 20 A. Yes, it's more than an article, it's a book. 79 Q. 1986? A. Yes, the Part II, because there're twoparts: one of 23 the first is Methodology and the second isResults. 24 That was one of the major -- Never mind. 25 BRUCE Examination - 50 - Mr.Metcalf80 Q. Never mind what? A. I've lost my train of thought. 81 Q. In your publications, Doctor Case, what I'm, about the location in the various mines ormills, 5 the factories where people worked and howlong they 6 worked there? A. I'm not going to tell you where my datacomes from 8 or what people. These are peer reviewedresearch 9 grants and that is not permissible. 82 Q. What's not permissible? A. To release research data or the names ofindividuals 12 who you contacted in terms of doing aresearch 13 project. 83 Q. Okay. In your publications, Doctor Case, the reconstruction of the asbestos dose in themines and 16 mills, and factory is based on whatinformation? 17 A. What reconstruction are you talking about? 84 Q. Well, in the publications, there'sdiscussion of the 19 amount, the doses of asbestos to whichvarious 20 people were exposed, is that correct? A. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you'retalking 22 about. Can you refer to a specificpublication? 23 85 Q. Well, for example, a 1997 article: Mesothelioma in 24 Quebec Chrysotile Miners and Millers: Epidemiology 25 BRUCE Examination - 51 - Mr.Metcalf and Ideology, is that one you remember? A. Is that the one by McDonald, Case and Churg et al? 286 Q. Right. A. Okay, yes, uh-huh. 87 Q. There's a discussion in there for example level of dust exposure? A. All right, yes, okay, I remember that, yes. 88 Q. Actually, I believe you'd have informationabout 9 what the levels of dust exposure were. A. Well, that's -- Are you familiar with thecohort 11 study that started in nineteen sixty-eight(1968) 12 where the whole process has been described?You 13 can't describe the whole process in everypaper. 14 89 Q. I understand that, and my question is, howwere you 15 able to reconstruct the doses that somebodyhad, who 16 worked for example from nineteen forty(1940) to 17 nineteen forty-five (1945)? A. Well, most people didn't work from nineteenforty 19 (1940) to nineteen forty-five (1945). 90 Q. Well, let's use a different time, somebodythat 21 worked from nineteen forty-eight (1948) to nineteen 22 fifty-three (1953), how do you reconstruct the 23 amount of asbestos... A. Well, basically you use a job exposure metrics type 25 BRUCE Examination - 52 - Mr.Metcalf of method. 91 Q. Well, did you have dust, actual dust counts available? A. Yes. 92 Q. Okay. A. I mean, Doctor Gibbs did this, I didn't, but basically yes, that's the way it was done. 93 Q. Do you know where those dust counts came from? 8A. Read the articles. 94 Q. I have read the articles, that's why I'm asking the 10 question. A. Well, if you've read the articles, then you know the 12 answers. 95 Q. So, you're not going to answer that question? 14A. No, I've directed you to the reference of this where 15 you can find the answers, and I can do so further by 16 referring you specifically to McDonald 1980, which 17 is a classic paper that was reprinted as a classic 18 paper by the British Journal of Industrial Medicine 19 in nineteen ninety-three (1993). 96 Q. Which McDonald 1980 paper? A. Yes, I'm sorry, there were several. The one in the 22 British Journal of Industrial Medicine, hang on a 23 second, let me see if I can find the exact reference. 25 BRUCE and McDonald? A. That's the one, yes, uh-huh. 98 Q. All that says is that concentration was estimated in 4 millions of particles per cubic foot from available 5 dust measurements and approximations? A. Yes. 99 Q. So, my question is, what are the available dust 8 measurements? A. Well, let me see if I can find another reference for 10 you. Liddell, McDonald and McDonald, 1997. This goes 11 through the development of the cohort and the 12 exposure calculations are on page 17. 100 Q. But it doesn't talk about what the source that 14 information was, correct? A. Yes, absolutely it does. Do you have it in front of 16 you? 101 Q. Yes. A. Do you see where it says: "Exposure calculations", 19 on page 17? 102 Q. I. A. Okay, it's all there. 103 Q. Were there, do you know if there are written records 23 that were maintained, for example by Bell Mines in 24 Thetford concerning actual dust counts? 25 BRUCE Examination - 54 - Mr.MetcalfA. It says right here: "A total of 3096 dust factory." And then before that, it says: "Estimates of past and present 10 dust conditions were made after 11 interviews with employees of long 12 service in collaboration with 13 superintendents or others with 14 special knowledge of past conditions." And then before that, it says: "Since 1948, dust surveys in the 20 mining and milling industry had 21 been conducted almost annually at 22 all operating companies by one 23 observer (Mr. Maurice Lachance) 24 using the midget impinger, 25 BRUCE Committee, 1963)." And then later on further down, it says: "All estimates were listed and 8 mean annual concentrations were 9 calculated. From these, the dust 10 level for each of the 5783 classes, year by year, was placed 12 on a 13-point scale." I mean, this is far more data than you're ever going 15 to get in the average epidemiological study, this 16 was a monumental task. 104 Q. So, the source of the data was dust counts made by 18 the owners of the mines and mills and/or the factory? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Object to the form. 25 BRUCE Examination - 56 - Mr.Metcalf THE WITNESS: A. No. operators of mines and mills? A. No. 106 Q. Do you have my question, Doctor Case? A. Well, I'm sorry, I said no, did you not hearme? 10 107 Q. Yes, and I then asked the question that thedust 11 counts that are referred to in that paperare dust 12 counts made by the owners or operators ofthe mines 13 and mills and factories? A. And I again said no. 108 Q. Who are they made by, then, in your, whatyou 16 believe as to who made the dust counts? A. It says that they were done by Mr. Lachance,the 18 original... 109 Q. So you think Mr. Lachance made everyone ofthem four 20 thousand (4,000) dust counts? A. Yes, that's, I told you it was a monumental task and 22 then, later on, all of the organization and estimation of exposure from the dust counts was done 24 by Gibbs and Lachance, and Gibbs was certainly never 25 BRUCE counts that were then utilized in, that are discussed in that paper? A. I've already said there were. 111 Q. Okay, and it is your testimony that Mr.Lachance is 7 the one who performed all those historicaldust 8 counts? A. That's what it says in the paper, this is apaper 10 from nineteen ninety-three (1993), quoting apaper 11 from nineteen eighty (1980); I was notaround in 12 nineteen eighty (1980), but there is noreason not 13 to believe what it says in the paper. 112 Q. So if there are dust counts done in nineteenfifty 15 (1950) that are referred to in that paper,those 16 would have been done by Mr. Lachance? A. According to this, yes. 113 Q. Okay. A. Because it says: "by one observer". 114 Q. For purposes of your research andpublications, 21 Doctor Case, I take it you've personallyspoken to 22 workers at the Asbestos, Quebec, mine andmill and 23 factory? A. Yes. 25 BRUCE Examination - 58 - Mr.Metcalf115 Q. Did you make any record of those interviews? A. No. 116 Q. So there is no, did you make tape recordings of 3 those interviews? A. Whether I did or didn't, I wouldn't give without their signed consent. 117 Q. Well, I wasn't asking you for any names,actually. 13 to do with the issues in this case. THE WITNESS: And we're running out of time. Well, that isn't my fault. 25 BRUCEWINSTON CASEExamination - 59 - Mr.Metcalf TH No, you have two hours. been proven to cause cancer? A. One of them, yes. 119 Q. Which one? A. First of all, let me stipulate I'm not an expert in 12 the area of substitutes, but the one that I know 13 about it, because it killed the father of a friend 14 of mine is silicon carbide. 120 Q. How do you know it killed the father of a friend of 16 yours? A. Well, the Workmen's Comp. Board compensated him for 18 it and he's also published on it, and Doctor S,bastien is having a four day symposium in Norway 20 this week on this very issue. 121 Q. Are there any epidemiologic studies showing that 22 silicon dioxide causes increased risk of any particular disease? A. I'm not prepared to answer that today but Ican 25 BRUCE dioxide produces a certain kind of disease? A. Same answer. 123 Q. Doctor Case, when, your publications where you 5 looked at rates of disease, you have to have a 6 control group, is that correct? A. The -- okay, sorry, which publications, we're 8 switching here, now, which publications are you 9 talking about? 124 Q. Your publications. A. On what? 125 Q. On rates of disease in people exposed to asbestos in 13 Quebec. A. Which article are you referring to? Are you referring to the McDonald articles? 126 Q. Well, the ones you co-authored with McDonald or that 17 McDonald are included in that, aren't they? A. I don't know, I'm asking you which articles you're 19 referring to. 127 Q. I refer to the Mesothelioma in Quebec Chrysotile 21 Miners and Millers: Epidemiology and Ideology. 22A. Okay, and you're asking, do you need to compare them 23 to controls? 128 Q. Right. 25 BRUCE control study. 129 Q. In the controls you've used, for example,for 4 controls in some of your papers, accidentvictims, 5 is that correct? A. No, not in that study. 130 Q. No, but in other studies, you've usedaccident 8 victims, haven't you? A. I did a study -- I personally have done astudy of 10 accident victims, of the amount of asbestosin the 11 lungs of accident victims, yes. 131 Q. Other than looking at the fiber burden inthe lungs 13 of accident victims, have you used otherinformation 14 to determine asbestos exposure informationfor 15 accident victims, such as medical records? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Object to the form. THE WITNESS: A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.We 22 published a study of, and actually one ofthe ones 23 that's on the Internet right now, becausethe EPA, 24 it was in my EPA presentation in Oakland last May, 25 BRUCE accidents victims in nineteen eighty-eight (1988), 2 and it showed a relationship between lung fiber 3 content and asbestos body content and age, and it 4 also showed a rural-urban difference, and those 5 basically were the results. Examination - 63 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Same instruction as what? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: To not answer. Examination - 64 - Mr. Metcalf144 Q. Do you know a Nola N-O-L-A, Seymoar, S-E-Y-M-O-A-R? 1A. No. 145 Q. Do you know a Scott Easton? A. I know who he is. 146 Q. Have you ever worked with Mr. Scott Easton? A. No. 147 Q. Have you ever corresponded with Scott Easton? 7A. No. 148 Q. Do you know a Michel, M-I-C-H-E-L, Lesage? A. No. 149 Q. Do you know Jacques Donegan? A. Yes. 150 Q. Have you ever worked with Jacques Donegan? A. No, I mean we've gone to the same conferences but, 14 and I know who he is. 151 Q. But you've never done any work with him? A. No. I don't think so, I don't think we've ever -- 17 no, we've never published anything together. 152 Q. Are you familiar with the Asbestos Institute? 19A. Yes. 153 Q. Have you attended any meetings of the Asbestos 21 Institute? A. Never. 154 Q. Have you corresponded with people at the Asbestos 24 Institute? 25 BRUCE Group is? A. No. 156 Q. Have you ever travelled to Southeast Asia todiscuss 5 asbestos issues? A. No. 157 Q. Have you ever travelled to Japan to discussasbestos 8 issues? A. I went to Japan in nineteen ninety-one(1991) to an 10 international meeting on the health effectsof low 11 dose asbestos and recommendations forfurther 12 research including surveillance of workers. 158 Q. Have you ever travelled to Mexico withregard to 14 asbestos issues? A. No. 159 Q. Have you ever travelled to South Americawith regard 17 to asbestos issues? A. I've travelled to Brazil in order to peerreview a 19 research program at a university in a placecalled 20 Campinas that deals with an epidemiologicalresearch 21 program that they've set up in theirchrysotile 22 mining industry. 160 Q. How was it arranged for you to go toCampinas for 24 this review? 25 BRUCE I would like to come. 161 Q. Who else was there with you during that review, 3 other than the Brazilians? A. Doctor Beckleg and Doctor Dufresne -- was it Doctor 5 Dufresne, no, Doctor Kerni. 162 Q. Have you travelled to -- somebody is whispering to 7 you, I can hear, let me know when you're ready to 8 go. A. Nobody is whispering to me, the Court Reporter is 10 whispering into her thing there. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: She has one of those speaker things as opposed to 14 one where she's actually typing and she's right by 15 the speaker phone. India with regard to asbestos issues? A. No. 164 Q. Have you travelled to Eastern Europe with regard to 22 asbestos issues? A. No. 165 Q. Have you travelled to Scandinavia withregard to 25 BRUCE Examination - 67 - Mr.Metcalf asbestos issues? A. No. 166 Q. Do you believe that the Canadian asbestos mining 3 industry should be closed down? A. That's not relevant to litigation. 167 Q. So you're not going to answer that question? A. No, it's beyond the purview -- it's a political 7 question and I'm not here to answer political 8 questions. 168 Q. Do you still maintain that the asbestos bodies 10 described by Doctor Hammer and Doctor Abraham in a 11 tissue slice from Alber are in fact not asbestos 12 bodies? A. Absolutely, and I'm prepared to prove it at trial 14 with photographs. 169 Q. Okay. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Let me just note for the record that Mr. Metcalf was 19 unable to come to Montreal to attend this deposition, although he tried to do so, and at 21 Examination - 68 - Mr. Metcalf able to do that, so just so the record is clear 1 what, we're not certain, I don't know that we can be 2 certain what Doctor Abraham and Doctor Hammer say 3 are asbestos bodies until we see the pictures. 4 Doctor Abraham says are asbestos bodies? A. Do you mean have I seen his pictures? 171 Q. Right. A. Yes, he e-mailed them to me. 172 Q. So, in fact, you have had a chance to seepictures? 12 A. Yes, I've printed them out and I'll be usingthem at 13 trial to demonstrate that they are notasbestos 14 bodies. 173 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion, Doctor Case,about 16 the cause of Mr. Alber's mesothelioma? A. I think I stated it in my report, let mejust see if 18 I can find it. Okay, yes. Okay, so, myreport has 19 a number of conclusions, but with specificrequest 20 -- sorry, to specifically answer your question, the 21 most relevant are numbers 4 and 5 and I have obtained additional information about 4, well, I 23 haven't but I've reviewed additional information. 24 So, it's now my opinion that this particular 25 BRUCE asbestos. 174 Q. Is it your opinion, Doctor Case, that chrysotile 3 never causes mesothelioma in human beings? A. It's my opinion that, given the current state of 5 medical knowledge, chrysotile is not a cause of 6 malignant mesothelioma. 175 Q. So you agree that, it is your opinion that chrysotile has never caused mesothelioma in human 9 beings? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Objection, asked and answered. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: A. My opinion is that given the current state of 16 medical knowledge, chrysotile is not a cause of 17 malignant mesothelioma. Examination - 70 - Mr. Metcalf mines in that area. 177 Q. Is it your opinion that the talc and/or the tremolite in the talc in the New York State Vanderbilt Talc mines can cause mesothelioma in 4 human beings? A. I can't specifically relate it to the Vanderbilt 6 mines because I don't have knowledge of them, but it 7 is my opinion, and it's supported by the epidemiology of the region which is my main contribution to this paper, that indeed it is the 10 tremolite in this area that causes the mesothelioma 11 in this area, yes. 178 Q. Do you have any opinion as to the source of the talc 13 that was found by Doctor Abraham in Mr. Alber's 14 lungs? A. I found that intriguing. I actually -- I don't 16 know, you know, I honestly don't know. I found 17 Doctor Abraham's fiber analysis to be frankly very 18 strange, I don't understand it at all. The quantities he reports are so low for every fiber 20 type except talc that it's difficult to understand. 21 I mean it's below control values that we Examination - 71 - Mr. Metcalf have been a mathematical error made or someerror in 1 the preparation. 179 Q. Now, in your lab, you do analyses with transmission 3 electron microscope, is that correct? A. Yes. 180 Q. And your background determinations are made by using 6 a transmission electron microscope... A. Yes. 181 Q. ... for analytic purposes? A. That's right. 182 Q. Have you ever seen cases of mesothelioma in which 11 the person with mesothelioma had only chrysotile in 12 their lungs? A. No. 183 Q. Have you ever seen cases of mesothelioma where the 15 person with mesothelioma only had chrysotile in 16 their pleura? A. You don't analyze the pleura, you analyze the lung. 18184 Q. Well, my question is the same: have you ever seen a 19 mesothelioma where the person with mesothelioma only 20 had chrysotile in their pleura? A. No. 185 Q. Doctor Case, what's the source of your concerning the fact of asbestos used in brake pads? 24 A. The source of the asbestos? 25 BRUCE asbestos used in brake pads? A. Just the general literature, and what I'vebeen told 3 by the attorneys for the Defendants. You'retalking 4 about the fiber type I assume? 187 Q. Right. A. Yes, okay. 188 Q. Your source of information about the fibertype of 8 asbestos used in brake pads has been fromthe 9 general literature and from the attorney representing these companies that make brakepads? 11 A. Yes, also from the United States GeologicalSurvey. 12 189 Q. Did the U.S. Geological Survey make brakepads? 13 A. No, but they provide information on thecurrent use 14 of chrysotile asbestos in the United Stateson a 15 yearly basis, and for example, in twothousand 16 (2000), sixteen percent (16 %) of thechrysotile 17 imported into the United States, which is effectively the only fiber that was used tomake 19 brake linings. 190 Q. Do you know what are the Stanton fibers,Doctor 21 Case? A. It's not a term I would use, and therefore,I 23 wouldn't define it. 191 Q. What is the Stanton hypothesis, Doctor Case? 25 BRUCE to Stanton's 1981 paper which sometimes is misstated, especially with respect totremolite. The 3 main hypothesis that Stanton had was thatfibers 4 implanted rather artificially on the pleuralsurface 5 in an animal model would create tumorsdependant on 6 a length longer than 8 micrometers and awidth 7 shorter, sorry, narrower than .25micrometers. 8 It's interesting however that that did not apply to 10 tremolite as we pointed out in the ATS review 11 article in, I think it was nineteen ninety (1990), 12 that Doctor Abraham and I are co-authors of. 192 Q. Do you believe that the Stanton hypothesis is valid 14 for human beings? A. Only in the sense that I think that fiber length is 16 an important contributor to risk, after you have 17 accounted for fiber type. 193 Q. Is there any length of fiber that you believe 19 carries no risk for causing cancer? A. Yes, I would say that generally speaking that fibers 21 that are shorter than 5 micrometers in length carry 22 no appreciable risk. 194 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of the half life 24 of fibers in lung tissue? 25 BRUCE what? A. Well, in the crudest sense, if you took ahundred 4 percent (100 %) of fibers of a givendefinition and 5 waited for them to go down to fifty percent(50 %) 6 or half of that amount, then that period oftime 7 that it took for it to reach, that would bethe half 8 life. 196 Q. And then, the next fifty percent (50 %)would be the 10 same half life? A. Not necessarily, that would only be true ifthe 12 curves were linear. It would also depend tosome 13 extent on the degree to which the fiberssplit 14 and/or broke in the lung. 197 Q. Is magnesium leaching from chrysotile orrelated to 16 time elapsed from the unset of exposure tothe 17 chrysotile? A. I don't know, I think magnesium leaching isa moot 19 point and has no relevance to pathology ordisease. 20 198 Q. Well, but can you answer my question? A. I said I don't know, that's the best I cando. 22 199 Q. All right. Are you familiar at all of DoctorPeto's 23 work in which he purports to show thatasbestos acts 24 early in the process that leads tomesothelioma? 25 BRUCE didn't? 200 Q. That purports to show that asbestos actsearly in 3 the process that ultimately leads tomesothelioma? 4 A. Well, I think in fact that's included in myreport, 5 if you look on page 8 of 11, at the bottomof the 6 page, I say: "In general in mesothelioma, 9 earliest exposures are most 10 important for four reasons: 11 1. risk increases with the third 12 to fourth power of time from first 13 exposure (...)" That's also called the Peto hypothesis whichhe 16 developed with the cells count data. 201 Q. So, how long does an asbestos fiber have tobe 18 present in somebody's body to initiate thechange in 19 a cell that eventually leads to cancer ofthe 20 pleura? A. Well, first of all, it has to be anamphibole fiber 22 not a chrysotile fiber, but having saidthat, the 23 answer is nobody knows because we don't knowthe 24 mechanisms of production of disease in abiomedical 25 BRUCE Cancer. 202 Q. So, you don't know how long an asbestosfiber has to 5 be present to initiate a change that wouldlead to 6 cancer of the pleura? A. An amphibole fiber, the mechanisms ofproduction of 8 mesothelioma by amphibole fibers areunknown. 9 203 Q. Doctor Case, are any of your opinions inthis case 10 not based on your own published work? A. Yes. 204 Q. What opinions in this case are based onsomething 13 others than your own published work? A. Well, the opinions specifically withrelation to the 15 question of the epidemiology of brakeworkers and 16 mesothelioma, number one; secondly, theepidemiology 17 of those who manufacture friction productsat a much 18 higher dose level of chrysotile in frictionproducts 19 production plants and mesothelioma. Those epidemiological studies, number two, thoseare 21 certainly the most important. Of course, Idon't 22 limit myself to that but to the entireliterature 23 and my entire experience of twenty (20)years in the 24 field. In fact, I name many of the references in the 25 BRUCE crocidolite asbestos when they worked at the factory? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: I instruct him to not answer. that question. THE WITNESS: A. No, my opinion in this case has no relationto that 25 BRUCE Examination - 78 - Mr.Metcalf observation. had when they worked at the factory? A. Yes, the factory workers that had crocidolite 8 exposure developed mesothelioma as a result, I mean, 9 that's extremely well established, and there also 10 were some additional cases that were probably due to 11 tremolite. described it. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Can I add, suffice it to say, Scott, Istrongly 25 BRUCE Examination - 79 - Mr.Metcalf disagree with you. THE WITNESS: Who's waiting for who here, because I answered the 4 question last? the mine and mill area? A. No. 208 Q. Is it your opinion that tremolite that is mined 13 along with the chrysotile in Quebec finds its way 14 into the asbestos that is shipped out of the mill to 15 other places? A. Also no. Have you seen my affidavit on this subject? 17209 Q. I don't believe I have, Doctor Case. A. Okay, well, probably the best thing is if we provide 19 you with it, if that's okay with the rest of you 20 folks. Examination - 80 - Mr. Metcalf try and clear these objections and avoid any future 1 discovery problem, and if Mr. Falk is amenable to 2 providing the affidavit and that's going to avoid a 3 future discovery problem, you know, we'll see if he 4 wants to do that. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: It's not, it's not my choice, he's referring to an 8 affidavit, a very lengthy affidavit that was filed 9 down in Texas, under Texas's Robinson/Havener 10 Standard, on behalf of lawyers for Garlock. Examination - 81 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: All right. THE WITNESS: A. Well, as far as I know, I mean once you doan 5 affidavit and you swear that this is thetruth, 6 isn't that a public document? I thought itwas. 7 answer any of those questions? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: That is correct. answers have been given. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: Well, I disagree with that. 25 BRUCE matters that are contained in his own articles, 3 particularly with regard to the lung burdens, and of 4 course the air sampling, but we're not going to go 5 down this road on Doctor Egilman's non-peer reviewed 6 theory of crocidolite contamination as put forth on 7 his Website. peripheral? A. I don't know but you can probably get apretty good 14 guess by looking at a map. I honestly don'tknow 15 which are which. You see, there've been something 16 like eighteen (18) mines over time and some of them 17 have come together, and some of them have gone 18 apart, and some of them are underground, and some of 19 them became open pit, and then they became underground again; so I honestly don't know which. 21 213 Q. Well, is it, is it of the same asbestos and tremolite products present at the various Thetford 23 mines to the best of your knowledge? A. Products? 25 BRUCE was. 215 Q. Let me try a different question. As far as you know, 4 is the asbestos and tremolite found in the ground in 5 the Thetford mines the same, whether you call it 6 particular mine central or peripheral? A. No, it's quite different. 216 Q. So, what I'm trying to figure out is if it's different, how do you tell what is a central mine 10 and what is a peripheral mine? A. You said Asbestos and Thetford. 217 Q. Right. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Are you talking Asbestos the town, capital A, or 16 asbestos the mineral, small a? THE WITNESS: I think that's... No, I'm talking about the small a, mineral. 25 BRUCE Examination - 84 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Okay. 218 Q. Asbestos, small t, mineral tremolite, at capital T, 5 Thetford, Quebec. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: We got that, I just wanted to clear up thetown. 9 THE WITNESS: A. Okay, I'm sorry, what's the question again? and what's a peripheral mine? A. Well, there's two ways: basically one is by the lung 20 burden of the workers, which were separated, and if 21 you look at Professor McDonald's 1995 article and 22 science sheet, you can understand that; but the 23 other has to do with the difference in geology, and 24 I'm not prepared to discuss that. Except to the 25 BRUCE purpose other than for the gas mask manufacture? 4 Mr. ERIC K. FALK: I will instruct him to not answer. Same basis as 7 before. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. making gas masks? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. Examination - 86 - Mr. Metcalf ever used at the factory at Asbestos,Quebec? 1 Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. for any purposes at Thetford Mines, Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. Examination - 87 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. the factory? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. THE WITNESS: A. Same answer. Examination - 88 - Mr.Metcalf examined as to your results? A. I'm not going to tell you about the research procedures that we used in peer review procedures 3 here in Canada and studies funded by agencies like 4 the NIH, except to say that all proper ethical 5 protocols were followed. 228 Q. So, you're not going to answer whether survivors of 7 those people were informed as to hear the results of 8 your fiber burden analysis of lung tissue? A. Well, I think I just answered, but you also understand that the results are published, that we 11 don't hide anything. 229 Q. Well, yes the results are published butnobody would 13 know if it's actually their daddy who wasbeing 14 talked about, would they, because there's nonames? 15 Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Objection, form, argumentative. THE WITNESS: A. Are you suggesting that a researcher should the names of his research subjects? Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: 230 Q. Not at all. Being the case, given that, Ithink that 25 BRUCE asking questions. A. Well, I've done the best I can and I have given you 4 an extra hour. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: All right, that concludes the deposition. Signature, 8 Doctor? THE WITNESS: Yes, please. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Not waived, all right. AND FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT ___________________________ BRUCE transcription of the testimony and pleadings herein, 4 taken by me by means of a stenomask, the whole in 5 accordance with the law. AND I HAVE SIGNED: _____________________________ . . - 91 - . I, Bruce W. Case, have read the foregoing 89 pages 1 of my deposition which was taken before NICOLE 2 L'ABB_, Official Court Reporter and 22, 2001. I find the transcript of this deposition to be a 7 true and accurate transcript according to my testimony on that date, with the exception of ____ 9 corrections, as listed on an attached correction 10 sheet which was filled in by me. __________________ _____________________________ 14 date .. - 92 -. ERRATA SHEET 1 ____________________________________________________ 3 2 3 ____________________________________________________ 5 4 ____________________________________________________ 6 ____________________________________________________ 7 6 ____________________________________________________ 8 7 ____________________________________________________ 9 8 ____________________________________________________ 10 9 ____________________________________________________ 11 10 ____________________________________________________ 12 11 ____________________________________________________ 13 12 ____________________________________________________ 14 13 ____________________________________________________ 15 14 ____________________________________________________ 16 15 ____________________________________________________ 17 16 ____________________________________________________ 18 17 18 ____________________________________________________ 20 19 ____________________________________________________ 21 will do as he requests. Mr. J. CONARD METCALF: And that is what, Mr. Falk? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: This deposition is adjourned. Dr. DAVID EGILMAN: Conard... Yes, Doctor Egilman... Mr. ERIC K. FALK: We can go off the record. Off record. I'd like to remain on... 25 BRUCE fine, I just think it's a proper question. Mr. SCOTT M. BROWNING: Ultimately, we're not going to answerquestions 24 about Doctor Egilman's conspiracy theory,we're for 25 Examination - 27 - Mr.Metcalf Mr. Alber's lungs, let's focus on the fiber analysis. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: I'm going to make it easy, I'm going to instruct 5 Doctor Case to not answer any questions on that 6 line. and ask another question. 25 BRUCE WINSTON CASE Examination - 38 - Mr. Metcalf the factory at Asbestos, Quebec? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Instruct him to not answer. Industrial Hygiene Foundation in Pittsburg? A. No. 133 Q. Do you know if that was ever obtained by McDonald as 12 part of his workup of this cohort? A. It was reviewed by McDonald for IARC, and that's 14 been published: 1973, IARC Scientific Publication 15 No. 8; Podowski, Editor. 134 Q. But you've not seen the Braun and Traun data? 17A. No. 135 Q. Doctor Case, do you believe that fiber diameter in 19 the milling process is important? Mr. ERIC K. FALK: Same instruction. 25 BRUCE Case? A. Yes, I'm a very obedient guy. 137 Q. Doctor Case, have you ever met Karl D. Indell? 11A. Who? 138 Q. Karl, K-A-R-L, Indell, I-N-D-E-L-L. A. No, never heard of him or her. 139 Q. Have you ever met Yvan Sabourin? A. No. 140 Q. Have you ever met Paul Cartier? A. No, I think Doctor Cartier died before my time, or 18 at least was made an invalid by a ski accident. 19141 Q. Have you ever met Ms. M.E. Meek? A. Yes, M.E. Meek works for Health Canada. 142 Q. Have you worked with Ms. Meek? A. No. 143 Q. Have you corresponded with Ms. Meek? A. No. 25 BRUCE Vanderbilt Talc mines in New York State? A. Yes, Doctor Abraham and I, as you probably know, are 23 working together on a paper related to that, it's 24 not only Vanderbilt, but there are a number of talc 25 BRUCE avoid future discovery problems. Mr. ERIC K. FALK: I think that's probably a public record and it 18 wouldn't surprise me that Mr. Metcalf already has 19 it. Well, I don't already have it. 25 BRUCE crocidolite and the people who worked at Asbestos, 21 Quebec, came from any source other than working in 22 the factory there? 25 BRUCE papers research where you would examine lung tissue... A. Uh-huh. 227 Q. ... to determine asbestos fiber content,would you 24 inform the survivors or the person whoselungs you 25 ____________________________________________________ 22 21 ____________________________________________________ 23 22 ____________________________________________________ 24 23 ____________________________________________________ 25