Mr. STOKES:. Well, I appreciate your testimony on that point. I think it will be helpful to us in trying to reconcile these differences. Mr. Regan, during the period of time you were the Chief of Staff, after Poindexter and North had left the White House, did there come a time when there was a discussion with the President, when you were present, about congressional immunity for Colonel North and Admiral Poindexter?

Mr. REGAN: Yes, there was such a time.

Mr. STOKES:. And would that have been around approximately December 15th, 16th?

Mr. REGAN: I think even earlier than that—probably around December 8th, 9th, or 10th, in through there.

Mr. STOKES:. I see.

Mr. REGAN: I recall discussions of that.

Mr. STOKES:. And who was present at that time?

Mr. REGAN: Well, I remember one discussion among the President, the Vice President and myself regarding this as to how to get the full story out. Both the admiral and the colonel were refusing to talk. We had said we didn't know the story, couldn't find out the story, granted, the Tower Commission was working but still in an effort to hasten this, I believe the President did suggest publicly some time in the period to which I referred that either the Senate or the House or both intelligence committees should give limited immunity to both of these witnesses or to either one of them in order to get a story out. But both of the committees, the House and the Senate Intelligence Committees, said, no, they didn't want to do that, that it wasn't the proper time.

Mr. STOKES:. Now, at either that particular meeting or any other meeting, was the question of Presidential pardon for either Admiral Poindexter or Colonel North ever discussed with the President?

Mr. REGAN: Yes, it was. I

Mr. STOKES:. Can you tell us when that was?

Mr. REGAN: Yes. Somebody brought it up to him got shot down right away. That was something the President wouldn't even listen to, the fact that he should grant a pardon. His reasoning went along this sort of line, to grant a pardon means you think somebody has committed a crime; you only pardon for a crime. And he didn't know what the crime was. As yet, there had been no evidence brought to him, the Tower Commission report was not out, the independent counsel had been put in being, but he had no report, obviously neither the Senate nor the House Intelligence Committees had finished, let alone the fact that this committee would be set up, so the President said not only is it premature, but I will be darned if I am going to accuse them of a crime in advance.

Mr. STOKES:. Was that the extent of the conversation that day, as you recall?

Mr. REGAN: It never came up again. He put his foot down hard, and it never came up again.