Mr. LIMAN: Did you ever look and see the bank records before you met in the committee rooms here?

Mr. SECORD: No, I have never seen the bank records.

Mr. LIMAN: Did you ever ask to see the bank records?


Mr. LIMAN: Did you ever sign any document that gave you access to the bank records?

Mr. SECORD: Never.

Mr. LIMAN: Why did you choose not to ask Hakim to see the bank records?

Mr. SECORD: I didn't think they were important.

Mr. LIMAN: Did you not think it was important to know how much money there was that was generated by this enterprise?

Mr. SECORD: He was telling me. I knew what the deposits were.

Mr. LIMAN: And you knew what the expenditures were?

Mr. SECORD: Generally.

Mr. LIMAN: Now even after you told Hakim that you didn't want the interest in the profits, were you controlling the expenditures?

Mr. SECORD: I was directing him to make the expenditures in support of the various projects.

Mr. LIMAN: Is it a fact, Mr. Secord, that after August 1985, all of the funds that were generated in those bank accounts came from your efforts?

Mr. SECORD: Yes.

Mr. LIMAN: And is it a fact that all of the expenditures were expenditures that you directed expensed?

Mr. SECORD: The general answer to that question is yes. However, I would like to qualify the answer by saying Mr. Hakim probably made some expenditures from his profits that I would have no idea of.

Mr. LIMAN: Now, did you know what his profits were?

Mr. SECORD: Generally.

Mr. LIMAN: And was Mr. Hakim to receive a profit on the sale of the weapons to Iran?


Mr. LIMAN: And was that because you and he agreed that that would be done on a non-profit basis?

Mr. SECORD: That is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And the profits from the Iran sale were to be dedicated to another purpose. Am I correct?

Mr. SECORD: That is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And is it a fact that you told Oliver North that you would not be making profits from the Iran sale?

Mr. SECORD: I did not tell him that.

Mr. LIMAN: Did you tell him that you would be making profits?

Mr. SECORD: I didn't tell him anything about it.

Mr. LIMAN: He never asked you?

Mr. SECORD: No, he knew it was a commercial enterprise. He assumed we were making some money.

Mr. LIMAN: But between you and Hakim, you agreed that you would make no profit?

Mr. SECORD: On those transactions, that is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And is there any other occasion that you can think of where Mr. Hakim decided to go into a commercial venture for no profit?

Mr. SECORD: No. But he was already making profits in the arms sales, and I thought that was fair enough.

Mr. LIMAN: Well, the profits that he was making in the arms sales were the sales to Calero, right?

Mr. SECORD: The contra.

Mr. LIMAN: And those sales amounted to what, about 10, $11 million?

Mr. SECORD: That is what we added up the other day, yes.

Mr. LIMAN: And you said that the mark-up on those was about average—averaged about 20 percent, correct?

Mr. SECORD: That is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: So that the profits on those would have been about, gross, about $2 million?

Mr. SECORD: Hakim calculated those profits. It was in that range, and I don't have exact numbers.

Mr. LIMAN: Of those $2 million, some of it was originally allocated to you, correct?

Mr. SECORD: Originally, yes.

Mr. LIMAN: Half of it?

Mr. SECORD: No, nothing like that.

Mr. LIMAN: Some of it to Mr. Clines?

Mr. SECORD: Yes.

Mr. LIMAN: And after what was allocated to Clines, the balance was allocated half to you and half to Hakim originally?

Mr. SECORD: Except that some payments were made to Mr. Quintero for his efforts.

Mr. LIMAN: And after that expense, the rest was divided between you and the

Mr. SECORD: Just as we have said about four times now.

Mr. LIMAN: And no profits of the $15 million that you have testified the other day from the Iran sale were to be kept by Hakim or you? Correct?

Mr. SECORD: The number is 14 million, and that is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: Isn't the $14 million exclusive of the million dollars you received from Israel in November?

Mr. SECORD: I accounted for that in my testimony.

Mr. LIMAN: Isn't the $14 million exclusive of that million?

Mr. SECORD: Exclusive of that $800,000, yes.

Mr. LIMAN: Well, whether it is $14 million or $14,800,000, your testimony here today was Hakim was not to keep any of that?

Mr. SECORD: That is right. And I think the bank records show that, as you must be aware by now.

Mr. LIMAN: And the $8 million that is now in some bank account really is not money that belongs to Hakim or you; is that correct?

Mr. SECORD: Well, the counsel—would you restate the question, please, sir?

Mr. LIMAN: Where is the $8 million that is being held today under the control of Mr. Hakim?

Mr. SECORD: The House counsel read that into the record, and as far as I know, it is correct. But he

Mr. LIMAN: Where is it?

Mr. SECORD: There is something over a million in a Swiss bank account, and the balance, according to Mr. Hakim's testimony, is being held by a fiduciary on his behalf.

Mr. LIMAN: What is the name of the fiduciary who is holding it?

Mr. SECORD: I don't have any idea.

Mr. LIMAN: In what bank?

Mr. SECORD: I have no idea.

Mr. LIMAN: You never asked him?

Mr. SECORD: I did, but there is no communication on that point.

Mr. LIMAN: But that is money that was generated by the Iranian arms sale, correct?

Mr. SECORD: Correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And on the basis of your testimony, that is money that doesn't belong to Mr. Hakim, correct?

Mr. SECORD: I didn't say that. I said that in my testimony, that the money is the money of the enterprise.

Mr. LIMAN: The money is the money of the enterprise, and who owns the enterprise?

Mr. SECORD: Mr. Hakim is the technical owner.

Mr. LIMAN: And is there a beneficial owner other than Mr. Hakim?


Mr. LIMAN: So, Mr. Hakim is both the technical owner and the beneficial owner?

Mr. SECORD: That is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And yet you said a moment ago that Hakim was not. to get any of the profits out of the Iranian arms sale?

Mr. SECORD: That was our plan.

Mr. LIMAN: So that the $8 million that is out there now is just being kept, but it isn't profit?

Mr. SECORD: That is a different issue, Mr. Liman, as you well know. In the first place, there are many bills that have yet to be paid outstanding against this enterprise. Bills that have to be paid. I don't know how much is going to be left after these bills are paid, and I am not focusing on that right now. I have got bigger problems to focus on than that. I have got a special prosecutor over here across the street that is trying to throw all of us in jail for performing our duty as we saw it. I haven't focused on some technical issue like you are bringing up here. This is crazy.

Mr. LIMAN: Was it part of your duty to keep this $8 million?

Mr. SECORD: Of course it was part of our duty to keep the $8 million. We had it in there for operating revenue. I didn't terminate this operation; the operation was blown apart. The operation was aborted:

Mr. LIMAN: So is it

Mr. SECORD: That was a snapshot that existed at that time.

Mr. LIMAN: Is what you are saying you expected if the arms sales continued to go forward, you would need to use this money to keep the enterprise going?

Mr. SECORD: Correct.

Mr. LIMAN: So that the enterprise could continue as a vehicle for the Iranian arms sales?

Mr. SECORD: That is correct.

Mr. LIMAN: Isn't it a fact, Mr. Secord, that in the case of every sale of arms that you made to Iran, you got paid by Ghorbanifar before you paid any money out to the CIA?


Mr. LIMAN: Is there an instance that you can recall where you didn't get the money up front?

Mr. SECORD: No, you said by Ghorbanifar. In the October transaction, we were paid by the Iranian government.

Mr. LIMAN: OK. You are a very literal man, so let me be literal, too. In every instance of sales to Iran, you received the money up front before you laid it out to

Mr. SECORD: Yes, sir.

Mr. LIMAN [continuing]. The U.S. Government.

Mr. SECORD: Correct. Correct.

Mr. LIMAN: And is it true that in every instance the amount that you received up front exceeded what the cost was, charged by the CIA and the transportation cost?

Mr. SECORD: Correct.